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blindboy
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 376
Location: Nod
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 Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:48 pm Post subject: Satori double bass question. |
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I was wondering if there was a training regiment you followed for your double kick stuff. I have been doing basic stuff like
RRLLRRLL at various tempos then paradiddles
RLRLRRLRLRLL.
Also ive been playing all of my normal right foot kick stuff with my left to build it up. Any other suggestions?
btw weird thing. I noticed in other posts about how you have had so much trouble with your slave pedal but having the bar straight helped alot. Heres the strange thing, if my pivots are absolutely straight I can't get doubles as smoothly. I have to keep the pivot bent at a very small angle granted. I suppose there is just a certain spot on every double pedal setup.
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I find it kinda funny, I find it kinda sad, the dreams in which im dying are the best i've ever had. |
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bytor
Admin
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 5248
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm just curious, whenever you guys are doing these paradiddles, are you using your heels even for the single strikes? I know you go heel/toe for the doubles, but are you using your heels for the singles in between the doubles or the ball of the foot? |
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blindboy
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 376
Location: Nod
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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I have no idea what Satori is doing but im just using the ball of my foot for the singles and the heel/toe stuff for the doubles. Although I have been switching between using my heel and the ball of my foot when playing normally just to strengthen it up.
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bytor
Admin
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 5248
Location: Kansas
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blindboy
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 376
Location: Nod
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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From what ive seen and heard those axis pedals do rock. However I would try the pad/toe variation of heel/toe before I laid down $230 for a pedal.
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I find it kinda funny, I find it kinda sad, the dreams in which im dying are the best i've ever had. |
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bytor
Admin
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 5248
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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Heh, yeah I hear that! It's just that my DW5000s are getting pretty old, and I wondered what your opinion was on these Axis beauties. If price is any indication, they should be pretty nice.  |
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blindboy
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 376
Location: Nod
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah they are suppose to be pretty sweet. As im sure you'll agree I wouldn't buy anything that I couldn't try out first (unless its an a ridiculously low price )
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Satori
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 27 Jun 2003
Posts: 401
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| blindboy wrote: | I was wondering if there was a training regiment you followed for your double kick stuff. I have been doing basic stuff like
RRLLRRLL at various tempos then paradiddles
RLRLRRLRLRLL.
Also ive been playing all of my normal right foot kick stuff with my left to build it up. Any other suggestions? |
Cool. I did pretty much the same thing except I didn't do much paradiddles. Maybe I should have, hmm, I think I'll work on that later, hehe. What I did do was play around with placing rests in the quad roll, mostly on the toe strokes, or both strokes of one foot. Placing a rest on the heel stroke only is hard for me. But it just takes practice I guess. I imagine that with paradiddles some really intricate things would be possible.
Something I do when I first start a practice session was spend just a few mins doing double strokes, one foot at a time, at a slow pace, and I would "perfect" the double stroke before going into the the quad rolling and stuff. I do four double strokes on one foot, and then the other, and then back again etc. I found this help me engrain the motion and made practicing it with both feet more effective. This is a no-brainer type thing I think because it's just standard warmup stuff. I also use a metronome whenever I do any sort of rudimentary sort of practice like this.
| Quote: | | btw weird thing. I noticed in other posts about how you have had so much trouble with your slave pedal but having the bar straight helped alot. Heres the strange thing, if my pivots are absolutely straight I can't get doubles as smoothly. I have to keep the pivot bent at a very small angle granted. I suppose there is just a certain spot on every double pedal setup. |
Yea man, that might be it. We have different pedals too probably so I'm sure they are all a bit different.
I have a thought on why this might the case though. I noticed that when I have bends in the joints the top speed I can reach is what I would consider low, like in the mid 180's probably. It's cuz the pedal is a bit slower to respond (my iron cobra anyway). As I straightened the arm I had to actually relearn how to do a double stroke on my left foot, to account for the faster response of the pedal.
When I first started doing this, having a little bend slowed the pedal enough for me to do a nice double stroke with my left foot, but I couldn't do it very fast. I know this probably sounds like I'm being overly anal or something hehe, but I thought there was a lot of significance to what I'm saying here. With me and my cobra, the reality is such that, even with the pedals set with no bends in the pivot arm the slave is still not as responsive as the master. This difference is so huge that even though I'm pretty good at doing double strokes with my left foot now, I can't pull it off on my master pedal. The master is just more responsive and my left foot can't keep up. So when I split the pedal and add another bass drum soon I'm going to have to relearn how to do a double on a master pedal with my left foot. But ultimately it will be easier and faster I think, which is why I'm doing it. There's also the issue that I'd rather not hold my legs in such straight pedal position, not good for my knees.
So anyway this might be what's going on with you. I think it is easier to do a double stroke on the slave if the pedal is a little less responsive (there is a little bend in the pivot joint). There's a simple way to test this out, try your left foot on your master pedal and see if you can pull off the double strokes. If you find you can't (which is what I experience) then I think that's a good indication of how much slower your slave is and how your left foot is tailored to that slower response. I find when I do this that my left toe doesn't come back quickly enough or something, and it chokes the toe stroke. The 2 pedals feel so bloody different, bleh. If you find your master feels like your slave when you try this (left foot on master) then I'd say you've got one heelll of a pedal  To me it seems very unlikely that they could feel identical when doing a double stroke, like it violates the laws of physics or something hehe, but I guess it's possible.
Oh yea, something which I think is key to reaching blinding speeds is using the push down motion of the toe stroke to push the heel back up again. That way the leg only does the down stroke and it never pulls itself back up, which is kinda slow. It's like the toe pushes down, the hammer slams the head and right at that point the leg is bounced/pushed back up by the toe. It feels light and smooth. If you time the little push with the toe just right, at the nano second the hammer hits the head, there's a pretty solid kick-back given to the pedal which can be used to push off and bounce the leg back up. It's good re-use of energy I think. But it can only be done for the second double in a series, for the first double, since there's no toe stroke to push off, you have to raise your heels with your legs. That's how it seems to work for me anyway. I can't go any faster than about 190 without doing this ankle snap rebound push thing. If it's timed right it's pretty effortless too. Maybe this is kinda dumb, but I have a habit of doing practice stuff until I'm totally fatigued. When I get tired and my joints start to ache a bit I have to find "easier" ways to do stuff. It was when I was totally beat and my feet and legs were hurting that I stumbled on this toe push thing, it enabled me to practice longer and then I noticed that I just started doing it all the time, even at lower speeds. I also think staying loose is important too, like the legs should dance and bounce on the pedals instead of push and stomp them. I started out kinda stomping, so I guess it just takes time. I find the weight of my legs falling down is almost enough to make the heel stroke anyway. I think it's all in the ankles. I also found moving the hammers closer to the head (and tightening the spings to compensate) helped a lot, I found a kind of balance point where the double stroke became really easy to do and the pedal just kinda rocks itself. Every pedal is different so I think it pays to experiment with them. Have fun and let us know how you progress 
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blindboy
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 376
Location: Nod
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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I tried my left foot on my master and I could get a double out of it as easily as with my right. It does feel quite a bit smoother than my slave pedal though. Im using a Pearl powershifter pedal btw. What you were saying about starting out with doing slow double strokes is really good advise. I started thinking about how my instructors in marching band taught me how to do double stroke rolls and that is exactly what they had me do. Start out very slow until you can get a nice slow smooth beat then speed it up slowly. speaking of fast kickdrumming, have you heard the kick drum part on "the grudge" by tool? jesus chirst Danney Carrey kicks butt.
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I find it kinda funny, I find it kinda sad, the dreams in which im dying are the best i've ever had. |
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Satori
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 27 Jun 2003
Posts: 401
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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I saw a video a while back of some black/death/speed metal type player, I forget what band he was with, anyway, he uses the quad roll and he was incredibly fast. So it's not such an obscure or uncommon thing I think. And as more people find out about it and how much easier it is than quick singles, I think it will become a lot more common in the near future (among metal players at least). Yup. 
Heard on the TV during the Simpsons tonight (on the Simpsons' tv I mean): a voice saying "I got propane in my urethra." (hank hill of course, hehhe, funny stuff).
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Real music isn't written, it's disovered, and the musician is only the conduit through which it flows. |
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Satori
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 27 Jun 2003
Posts: 401
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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I saw a video a while back of some black/death/speed metal type player, I forget what band he was with, anyway, he uses the quad roll and he was incredibly fast. So it's not such an obscure or uncommon thing I think. And as more people find out about it and how much easier it is than quick singles, I think it will become a lot more common in the near future (among extreme metal players at least). Yup.
Heard on the TV during the Simpsons tonight (on the Simpsons' tv I mean): a voice saying "I got propane in my urethra." (hank hill of course, hehhe, funny stuff).
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Real music isn't written, it's disovered, and the musician is only the conduit through which it flows. |
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blindboy
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 376
Location: Nod
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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hehehe i caught that simpsons quote tonight also good stuff :p
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I find it kinda funny, I find it kinda sad, the dreams in which im dying are the best i've ever had. |
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Drummin_Dan
King of the Jungle
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 1454
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Simpons is so deranged..it makes it funny...
I only dig Iron Cobra btw |
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projector
Tadpole
Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 21
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: | | I saw a video a while back of some black/death/speed metal type player, I forget what band he was with, anyway, he uses the quad roll and he was incredibly fast. |
Cheers Satori (and everyone else for that matter)! Juuso here.
I decided to register here, lots of good stuff.
Anyway, the guy is Derek Roddy and he plays in Hate Eternal. I watched the videos again and came to the conclusion that he doesn't use the quad roll. He's just incredibly fast with his singles, just like Nick Barker (Dimmu Borgir) and Jan Axel Blomberg aka Hellhammer (Arcturus, Kovenant, Mayhem, Winds) and countless other black metal drummers.
For those interested: the videos can be found at least via the eDonkey network, just do a search on "Derek Roddy".
| Quote: | | as more people find out about it and how much easier it is than quick singles, I think it will become a lot more common in the near future (among extreme metal players at least). Yup. |
Nah. I still find singles a lot easier.  |
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rkettner
Labrador
Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Posts: 306
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Right now I am going through Stick Control with my feet... while playing basic rock beats with my hands. This is a great practice regiment, and really improves independence.
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