Copyright Question

Exzilibus · Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:38 am Post subject: Copyright Question

My band was discussing copyrights last night at practice and an issue came up. I wanted to get some thoughts on what you guys think we should do...

Details below but here's what I'm asking of everyone: Do you think the copyrights to each song should go to the members who wrote most of the song? Or do you think everything should be split evenly?

Let me give you some backstory first...
My band worked very hard for an entire year, without our bassist, writing an EP that we're releasing soon. Our bassist was in our band at the time but rarely at practice due to being busy with another band that has since broken up. He rarely came to any practices throughout the entire year but did help write ONE of the five songs. Right before we recorded this EP...our bassist came in, quickly wrote bass lines to the other four songs, recorded the five songs, and has been to every practice since then.

4 out of 5 band members think this:
The credit and copyright should go to whoever made the CORE of the song (chord progressions, song structure, length of each part, etc.). This makes sense to me and I think that's what a lot of bands do because whenever I put a CD in my computer...the composer doesn't always list EACH member, it usually lists the 2 or 3 people in the band that wrote most of the song.

The bassist thinks this:
The song credit should go to anyone who contributed and help make the song what it is. Since he wrote 5 original bass lines, he wants credit on all 5 songs.

With our scenario...the bassist would only retain song rights on one song and he thinks that is unfair. I also think that HE believes we are punishing him for not being there during the writing process. I don't see it that way...I was happy for his success in the other band at the time and I'm not bitter so I don't care about punishing him.

Here's what it comes down to: I don't think its fair for the bassist to get just as much credit as the members who were there at every practice for a year writing these songs. He helped write one song and therefore I believe he should get only credit on that one song.

Our scenario would look like this:
Three songs have - Me, both guitarists
One song has - Me, singer, 1 guitarist
Another song has - Me, bassist, and our OLD guitarist
Seperate rights for the singer's lyrics

This way the 3 people who worked the hardest gets the credit yet the bassist wants everything split evenly. The bassist has admitted his only real concern is if these songs just happen to get really big and we make a lot of $ off of them, he doesn't want to be left with nothing...we don't want him making just as much $ as the people who worked real hard for it since he was barely there.

The compromise I suggested was to work out something in our band contract where after we make a certain amount of $, he gets a certain percentage of it, and this way he's not left with NO credit or $...just not as much as the 3 people who worked the hardest.

Any suggestions?
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styles2281 · Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject:

The bassist should get credit for the PARTS HE CREATED.

Those particular lines, if he CREATED them, are his intellectual property and he has a right to them and the credit due.

The only way he would NOT get credit is if, say, the guitarist wrote the bassline and he (the bassist) just played that. Beyond that he gets credit.
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gigeoffro · Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject:

Here's an idea... copyright the songs under your band name that way everyone in the band gets credit. The path your on now is how a lot of bands break up. Stop being greedy and just be happy that your making any $ at all for your music. The majority of musicians aren't that fortunate.
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tomz · House Cat Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Posts: 161

sounds like a bunch of weiners
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styles2281 · Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:44 am Post subject:

random white person · Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject:

kuniggety · Lion Joined: 09 Oct 2006 Posts: 906 Location: Okinawa

styles2281 · Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:30 am Post subject:

kuniggety · Lion Joined: 09 Oct 2006 Posts: 906 Location: Okinawa

Exzilibus · Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:48 am Post subject:

Thanks for the responses...

I don't want to copyright it under the band name for the following reason... IF there are band member changes in the future, I don't think its fair for the new guy to get $ and rights to something he had absolutely nothing to do with.

I also have no interest in replacing him for two reasons:
1) Even though he barely did anything to create these songs...he is working hard NOW.
2) During the year we were writing these songs and he wasn't there... we asked him if it was okay if we looked for a replacement and he was fine with it. We auditioned a TON of people and I've come to realize that NJ is pretty empty when it comes to finding a good, available bassist. Everyone we auditioned either sucked OR played very well but sucked in every other category: Personality, experience, commitment, reliability, etc.

At this point if my bassist ever leaves or is kicked out...I would rather continue on without a bassist at all than go through the painful process of auditioning terrible people again.

Styles made the point that makes the most sense to me: His bass lines are his creation, his intellectual property, and therefore deserves credit for them. I do agree with that but then I get mixed feelings on the EXTRA stuff. We all created all of our own parts for the songs...but on top of that... 4/5 of us also gave input on the structure, chord progressions, lengths of parts, transitions, etc. We're a metal band with a lot of busy parts so there are a lot of changes to make before a song is complete. The bassist did virtually nothing extra except for on one song...yet deserves just as much credit as those who did?

The more I think about it...the more I think I am just annoyed at the imbalance of effort for these songs. I don't feel like he worked hard at all for this EP and I know the rest of us worked very hard....so its tough for me to look at him as an equal and its tough for me to say that he deserves equal credit just for being in the band. However, it does seem like there are far less problems in the long-run by splitting everything evenly.
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tomz · House Cat Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Posts: 161

styles2281 · Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject:

Ex-

Does the person who writes the lyrics get EXTRA then, because they also wrote the lyrics? How do you split the lyric money?

It would seem that you're beginning to split hairs.

If he had ANY contribution to the song, then he should get credit. If he created the bass part, he should get credit for that. If he merely PLAYED a part already written for him (talking album) he need to get credit for PLAYING that part. If he's a MEMBER of the band, he should, likely, get an even split of the money, if that's what the rest of you are doing.

BEYOND that, I would speak with music business lawyer (and no, I don't know how to contact one).

BEYOND even that, I WOULD have to agree with tomz and say that you just need a Waaaaaambulance. Very Happy

Those are my final thoughts on the matter.
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Exzilibus · Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject:

Hahaha!

Good point on the lyric thing styles...that actually is another issue we're dealing with. Luckily there is only ONE song where our singer wrote all of the lyrics AND the guitar parts...however our current proposal doesn't pay him any extra for that. He gets the exact same percentage whether he wrote those guitar parts or not which makes no sense.

What I learned from this is that it seems like the bassist should either get credit/equal share if he was in the band at the time of the recording...or get paid as a fill-in bassist by the band at the time of the recording and then no rights/share of the money afterwards. In our case he has been a member the entire time so equal share does make more sense.

I put this post up on a bunch of different forums and I've gotten a lot of mixed reactions...most of them saying to split evenly. I am gradually realizing that this proposal will most likely cause more trouble than its worth in the end so at our meeting tomorrow I will push for equal shares.

Thanks again!
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gav · Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:11 pm Post subject:

how about putting all the money back into the band? hiring a studio again sometime or replacing equipment, getting shirts printed or something? just a thought...
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Exzilibus · Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:06 am Post subject:

Most of us used to be in another band called Delian League and that's what we used to do. Everyone got equal everything and then put all money back into the band. Eventually everyone got annoyed that they would work hard for shows/recordings and NEVER get handed any money. Even though the money was taken care of and helped for future costs...people are just happier in general when they do a show and go home with money in their wallet rather than going home with the promise that they don't have to pay for something out of pocket later on.

It caused minor, yet annoying problems that we want to avoid in this band...so we all agreed that ALL the money we get in this band would be handed to the members immediately and studio time, shirts, etc. would be paid out of pocket. Just from our DL experience, everyone is happy with that.

The HEART of this current dilemma and the reason why I don't like to split everything evenly is because of the following:
Delian League ALWAYS split everything evenly and there was always two bandmembers working hard with three people slacking. If one of the slackers would begin to work hard...then one of the people working hard would begin to slack...there NEVER was a time where all five of us worked hard because you get the same credit/money whether you do anything extra or not.

Our manager likes our idea of guaranteeing EVERYONE 5% for writing their part but then splitting everything else evenly among whoever created the song. If EVERYONE works hard then everyone gets 20%.

Here are two examples of what I mean

Song Example 1
Creators: Me and one guitarist
Lyrics: Singer

Me: 30%
One Guitarist: 30%
Singer: 30%
Second Guitarist: 5%
Bassist: 5%

or

Song Example 2
Creators: Me, Both Guitarists
Lyrics: Singer

Me: 23.75%
One Guitarist: 23.75%
Singer: 23.75%
Second Guitarist: 23.75%
Bassist: 5%

This way there is motivation...if you want a bigger cut, then you will make sure you work hard to help write the future songs and get it. My guitarist made the point yesterday that for our 2 newest songs, the other guitarist and I did ALL of the work and he just wrote his part over what we did. So what's to stop him from NEVER doing that extra work if we split everything evenly anyway and he gets credit whether he does anything extra or not?

This percentage proposal is an effort to solve those problems, while giving credit where credit is due on the songs already created, and motivating the band for any future song.
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