Obama Vs. McCain

007david · Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:57 am Post subject:

Point by point here is why I'm voting for Obama, and they are roughly ranked in order of importance.

Philosophically speaking I want a president who does not always say "the state of our nation is strong". That is not to say that I believe the US is weak, per se (we are fighting two offensive wars), but I want just in general someone to be able to say "yeah, we screwed the pooch" or "things need to be different". This is partly why I actually like the Pastor Wright situation; I don't necessarily disagree with his comments (the "god *Holy Censor, Batman* america" ones, not the crazy stuff much later on). I grew up in a church where anything internally negative--by which I mean within the church, city, state, or nation--that was not either homosexuality, abortion or other hot button issues, were denigrated to just being that one persons problem. The context of Pastor Wright's comments was that god should *Holy Censor, Batman* (i.e. judge) America for its sins in the world, and limiting things only to that, I agree. We've been complete dicks on the world stage, and largely we've done it until the veil of God's name. This is not to say that I believe the tone or anything else was right, but the limited intent is fine by me, and it is good to see that someone in power either sees or ostensibly sees that things should be fixed (e.g. rich-poor divide, 47m uninsured, security for the sake of liberty, etc).

Further on philosophy, but more tacitly so, I like a campaign run on hope rather than that of fear. This is not to say that McCain is running his campaign that way, but from the get go Obama's campaign has been about involvement, and pushing for progressive change, but also with the hope that it will come. Every other major candidate, with the exception of Huckabee, ran a campaign that centered mainly on "the terrorists will kill us if I'm not in office". I don't like it when someone tries to scare me into voting a certain way.

On a matter of policy, I am 100% for universal health care. I am one of those 47 million uninsured and I've nearly been bankrupted twice on medical things (I'm still 2k in the hole from the thumb cutting accident). Is this going to increase taxes, sure, but it's not a matter of simply stealing from you (that's totally disingenuous). You get a service for that tax and with economies of scale it brings down prices for everyone. Yes, you may be paying taxes for something you never need (e.g. I only go to the doctor when something big and bad happens which is infrequent), but philosophically that means you're helping your fellow human and practically it's making sure the system works. And, no, don't feed some BS line about how helping your fellow man should be private charity; unless you do that now you have no grounds to say that and unless you actually do want it any claims are essentially selfish. Which is my philosophical point; I believe a) the society is more important than the individual (ie everyone on the raft paddles we get somewhere, if one tips the boat we all drown) and b) I believe the government exists to regulate the ills and promote the good of humankind. Universal health care does both these things. I like Obama's version because it is inclusive and one is not forced to buy extra outside of what the taxes cover. It's the best of the crappy and borked free market system we currently have, with enough of a european system that it'll get accepted. Me, I'd take Germany's system and culture around it and be done with it, but baby steps.

On the matter of taxes I believe that trickle down, supply side voodoo economics are clearly false and favoritive only to the wealthy. I am not saying philosophically that people who have progressed monetarily should be penalize for that, no. I believe that the richer have a greater obligation to help the society move. Let's return to the raft analogy, I'm a cyclist so I've pretty much go no upper body strength. I'm going to paddle sure, but my shifts can't be as long as, say, an olympic kayaker. That kayaker worked hard and did all that he or she could to get there, but we are all in this together and if we want to get somewhere they are going to have to pull more because I can't. If this were a paddle boat rather than a raft, I would be held to make the stronger effort. Thus, I believe we should rescind the Bush tax cuts of 2003, and I believe that we should return to the FDR model of "Holy Crap, a tragedy and war! Ration and sacrifice so we can get through this and we'll be better," rather than the Bush model of "Holy Crap, a tragedy and war! Go shopping and bolster our economy falsely with debt." This is also why the health care taxes are less of an issue; Obama's plan is to cut taxes for the middle and lower classes so that they can start to move into the class above. This is a partial solution the inequality that is tearing the US apart and is furthering poverty. Yes, I get roughly 10% of my paycheck taken out in taxes, but you know what? I'm glad it is. With that money, I get roads, waterworks, power infrastructure, education (more on that later), protective services, governmental representation, guaranteed finances (FDIC), research, science, development, monetary help for those in need, and so much more. I wouldn't mind my taxes being higher still if it would gain even more. And, yes, Texas has no state tax, so I don't have the greatest position to speak about all situations.

On education, and speaking as a teacher, no child left behind does not and did not work. Education is the focus of school, not busy work no arbitrariness. I am, sure, the lofty academic/ivory tower type, but we need to instill in children the value and enjoyment of learning. I believe preschool is a good start for that; preschool allows children to get a head start on learning to read, but also puts them in an environment learning is presented as being fun and enjoyable so that when they get to the doldrums of algebra (which I love, don't get me wrongly) they can find the coolness in solving isomorphic homologies of symmetric groups. To do that we need to get higher quality teachers in schools, and really emphasize math and science. After I graduated from college I was offered industry (private and military) jobs ranging from 90-150 per year because of my mathematic and scientific skills. However, I chose the life I did because I'm a kick *Horse's Patoot* teacher--or so I've been told--and there aren't many of them in Texas or elsewhere. I decided that playing number games were less important and influential that teaching the next generation. This was not an easy decision, mind you, and it still isn't. Most people in math/science fields have different priorities and we need to bring their skills into education. We need mathematicians who can teach, no teachers who can do mathematics without fully grasping it at the core. Beyond that we need to do something about college funding; if I were to leave Texas and UT (which is really a great deal) and study elsewhere, I'm looking at an average of 15,000 per semester on tuition, fees, books, and living.

For the environment there is so much to say. We need to cut greenhouse gases by significant amounts. Whether or not you believe in global warming, the physics of greenhouse gases and their long term effects are incontrovertible. The question isn't whether it's a problem the question is when it's going to be a problem and we can't dick around hemming and hawing about whether it's anthropogenic. The fact is the effect is necessarily global (go back to the raft) and it's going to effect someone in your family in some number of generations. To get there, we need to give up oil for lots of things. Biofuels are a good short term solution, but there's not enough corn in the world to make it work. Wind, solar, wave, geothermal, nuclear (yes, I differ from my Green party on that one), heat, etc are all things we need to look at from a science and economics perspective. I'm not saying let the market decide which should "win" but consider the efficiency of power, which puts oil pretty low on the list, and nuclear very high--especially if we repeal presidents Carter's dumb rule about using fuel only once.

Beyond those big points, there are smaller ones and some on which Obama and I disagree. I believe the current immigration debate is veiled racism, and I believe the problem is biggest to the xenophobic. I believe the best solution is to work with the governments of nations that are losing people to the US to bolster their economy (getting rid of NAFTA would help there). The problem is that they suck or that we rock too much; it's that one groups raft isn't doing too hot and rather than die they'll jump ship. Additionally I support full marriage rights for same sex couples and Obama only supports civil unions. But I'm at odds with a lot of groups on that one. Civil rights are more important than ostensible security, and we need to remind ourselves that we are said to be the land of the free and home of the brave; it's not very brave to force security out of fear and its not very free to accept such intrusions. I think we need to make the civil and voting rights acts permanent and take a long hard look and what the patriot act has brought and whether it actually is worthwhile. Lastly I also support an end of the drug war; make it legal, make it taxed, use those taxes to fund rehabs.

Too long, didn't read? I guess the summary is that I'm a socialist.
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nirvanaautopilot · Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject:

As a first time voter, I feel that Obama has effectively reached out and turned younger people to politics again, especially those of us who have lost a lot of trust in our government over the past 8 years. I'm actually surprised that McCain has made it this far. IMO, he is way too out of touch with the American people, and would only continue in the footsteps of Bush. Now, to be fair, Obama isn't perfect. Especially lately, with his support of FISA and his shift towards the center, but I think there are underlying causes ( trying to get votes from moderates, etc.). Come November, I think Americans, regardless of affiliation, feel that drastic change is needed, and will vote accordingly.

styles2281 · Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject:

tylerdrummer · Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:51 pm Post subject:

Univ. healthcare, is not good, its not our fault that poeople dont have it, but we shouldnt have to pay for your health.
In a way i think that we do need aother partial bush, because he would know where bush is coming from and hopefully can extend and ty to fix things that have happened. people that think that bush is soo, terrible, need to rethink a bit. (clinton's were liars about the i didnt touch that women story, reagan and ollie north, kinda *Golly Gee* things up for today, and every president has made mistakes)
Obama i think is a total Racist, you can say mccain is all you want, but obama is bluntly racist. Now change isnt a bad thing, but trying to reformate america, is going to throw us over the top. i think if anything like i think DEW said, Obama needs to go over to finland and live a month over there to see how all of the cash and everything is effected from the healhcare.
Global warming and all this stuff i thinks alot of crap. one i dont think its effecting us that much and the chance it is i think its too late, our cars today are 1/20 of the *Poop* that was coming out of our cars in the 60's so we dont need to watse too much crap on this, just like the whole hole in the O zone layer in the ninetys(what happened to that, we just ptched it up or did it not exist)
illeagals, need to be sent back until they have their greencard to live here leagally, i dont mind immigrants that did the steps to be an american, but the ones that decided not too, need to go back.
Gay marraige, personally i could care a less, it would proabably be better if it was legal but its not going to effect me in any way.
Pot, i dont know if obamas still on this but shouldnt really be legalized, its still going to kill you, and *Golly Gee* up alot of people if you make it leagal(same thing with cigaretts i believe, )
Gas, another thing i do think bush made a mistake, alot of peopl wont like this but, i think when he went over and asked to lower the prices, and they said no, we should have raised all the stuff that we give them to hundreds of dollars so they cannot afford it, they will starve, and will make a compromise to make gas lower, cause i doubt people want to starve over gas and die.
obama i think is at a fine age, but he is not experienced enough with politics, but mccain could have done this too long

Really if we wanted the best, i think someone who is good maybe not the most known person that is a mix of the two come in and just sweep up the floor and i think this person would get easily 90% of the votes, but sadly i think its too late but that would be best i think

007david · Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:42 pm Post subject:

nirvanaautopilot · Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject:

random white person · Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject:

i know in just under a year when i'm out of school, i will no longer have a health plan since i can no longer be covered by my parents (fun fact... once you are over 21 i believe and not a full time student, say goodbye to your family's health plan) and in no way could afford to pay the exorbitant cost of a non-employer subsidized health plan.

if i get a cold, i won't go to a doctor. heck, if i break my arm i probably wouldn't see a doctor. in my book, health care should be about caring for peoples' health, NOT making money. you shouldn't be denied equal care based on your income or social standing. while thats scary to me, it would be a lot scarier if i was a low income parent and had to raise kids without proper health care. healthy people are better people that actually contribute to society. healthy people don't die early deaths. healthy people don't live with pain and suffering because they're afraid of going bankrupt at the doctor's office.

even if i was wealthy enough to afford a health plan on my own, i still like the idea of universal health care. it would be fantastic to show up at a hospital, show them my ID to prove i'm a citizen, then get the treatment i need and probably some free medication and a free overnight stay just to make sure i'm holding up ok... all without filling out any lengthy paperwork.
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nirvanaautopilot · Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject:

On the issue of healthcare-

I recently spent some time in Denmark, a country with numerous social welfare programs; healthcare being one of them.

Generally, from what I saw, people there enjoyed the coverage. I was there on a research program for school, and I did a few interviews with the family I was staying with. They said the doctors were just as skilled, there were no long lines, and they were treated well. Previously, all I knew about universal healthcare came from my American teachers, who all said it was a mess. I saw the complete opposite. Now, in the US, a program like that would take A LOT of work. Obviously it can't be immediately put in place, and it will not mirror programs like in Europe. As a young adult entering the real world, I fully agree with RWP. I won't be on my parent's plan for much longer, and I don't want to get injured or sick and think about whether or not I should seek a doctor.

On a side note - As I was posting this, there was an ad for John McCain on the thread with a picture of Obama and Iranian president Ahmadinejad and the question " Is it OK to unconditionally meet with Anti-American foreign leaders?"

Interesting.

bamboo · Labrador Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 309

If i could i'd vote Obama 100%. Or David Razz

Nationalised healthcare is a great idea, although here in the UK we're heading towards a two-tier system where the rich get better/quicker treatment which is pretty lame.

Being a conspiricist though, i don't think it's going to make a blind bit of difference... the election result has already been decided, and McCain is the winner Crying or Very sad

sbowman128675 · Lion King Joined: 16 Dec 2006 Posts: 1072

im Canadian, so who cares Smile

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shiloh · Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:16 am Post subject:

Yes you are Canadian, and you should care!
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Exzilibus · Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:55 am Post subject:

Pot won't kill you. It will make you dumber if you smoke all day/every day and will make you hungry but you will never overdose on it and I don't know of a single case where someone died because of pot. If anything, I'm sure a stupid person has died while being high...but I blame the stupidity, not the pot. There are plenty of smart potheads who have smoked for decades and have survived no problem.

That's like saying video games can kill you. Video games can alter your mindset slightly while playing them...but if you play Grand Theft Auto and then go drive 20 minutes later and crash into someone on the street because you couldn't tell the difference between right/wrong temporarily...then you are just a flat out idiot and deserve to die...but it would never make Grand Theft Auto become the sole reason for your death.
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drumminelsewhere · Moderator Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 3741

tylerdrummer · Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:19 am Post subject:

wo, guys like mellow down, its not that big of a thing

007david · Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: