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007david
Deputy Grammar Nazi
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 2494
Location: Austin, TX
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 Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| tylerdrummer wrote: | | we need to fix what we have know before going into ugly little electric buzzing cars. |
I think that sentiment is foolish. I don't keep driving on the wrong road assuming that the correct exit will come up.
Most people live within 40 miles of their work, and most driving is done to and from work. This is where electric cars can shine. Whether it's the Tesla Motors concept, the Chevy Volt, the plug-in Prius, or whatever else there is, these cars can get to and from work with greater efficency using only the electric motor. If we start there we've cut gasoline consumption by more than half. Then from there proof of concept can lead to greater scale and it could tackle trucking (or we could fix up rail so that trucking would be a last-mile effort).
The thing is start small, and, nicely enough, that small step fixes or at least alleviates the huge problem. |
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tylerdrummer
Lion King
Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 1250
Location: California, F
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| it needs to be going for a while before i think anoyone in my family will try it, like the sy dont buy the newest thing let the kinks cdome out first, electrics havent been out far enough to know what will happen, battery dies, car falls apart, you just dont know yet. and theres like no way my dad would trust driving that thing for an hour to work and a hour back |
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007david
Deputy Grammar Nazi
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 2494
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Actually the technology has been proven; ignoring clear data is the cause for the ostensible unpredictability. There was the EV1, the Prius and other hybrids have shown the battery technology to work, smaller scale city and kei cars, and the like.
Besides if we still want to do it half way, the plug-in Prius or the Volt both still have a gas engine for backup if you go out too far on the battery. But you don't have to. Plug the car in at home, plug it in at work, and assuming worst case of 40 miles, you're able to do 80.
The thing is if the battery dies, it's the exact same as if you run out of gas; you die on the side of the road until someone rescues you.* In an accident the last 100 years of automobile safty don't suddenly go out the window because the fuel source has changed; in fact electric would be safer since you're not riding on top of a giant explosive liquid. Saying we don't know what will happen is either misguided or overly ignorant.
Furthermore electric isn't the only option. There's also hydrogen, biofuels, solar, or (should we be lucky enough) public transit that works. My point is that we need to do something, and I personally think we care to much about ourselves (not selfishness, per se, but rather individualism rather than collectivism) to realize the long term effects.
Short term, yes, I would much rather drive my car to the grocery store, work, my bike routs, etc. But those trips are 1, 8, and 30 miles each respectively, and with the amount of fuel I'd use doing them and the amount of exhaust I'd create I'd be dwindling a finite resource and putting later generations at risk. Human ingenuity isn't finite, though, but at the same time neither is greed or laziness. We need to ignore the latter and focus on the former so we don't extinct ourselves in the next 1000 years.
_________________
So with that title, do I Godwin every thread now?
Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium Eruditionis Habes.
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drumminelsewhere
Moderator
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 3741
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| DrumHead wrote: | | drumminelsewhere wrote: | | Once again though, electric cars aren't ready to take over the normal cars. The technology just isn't there at all....yet, once it is lets do it, but until then we gotta use what we got. |
Yes, it certainly is here. Google Tesla Motors. A few venture capitalists Bill Gates types started this company and they are making a roadster that runs at about 2 cents a mile and outperforms a Corvette.
And the technology advances every day. They aren't even using lithium polymer batteries, which have even greater energy density (energy/weight).
There are 100s of things a leader with vision could drive to get this to critical mass. Economic incentives beyond the drops in the bucket that currently exist, mandates on government fleet vehicles, preference to contractors using the technology, etc. |
Where's the proof about this? Also the cost of making these cars to the car companies is usually a lot more, thus making the cars unaffordable.
Look once again I agree that alternative fuels are going to be great and awesome, but right now they can't compete with the known formula of a gas powered car, either the cost or performance doesn't work right now.
I know people and companies are looking in to other ideas (electric, hydrogen etc) but it's clear that the technology isn't here yet, or else why not make these cars? I mean if they were as cheap as building a gas powered car then why not? I mean they would sell like hotcakes. I would buy one, No gas costs? psh sign me up man.
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Not for fame or praise
Or to make noise with hate,
But to carry the torch in his mouth,
Strings create a flaming sound,
Thunderous beats crack the heart of our Savior
And His love pours out
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tylerdrummer
Lion King
Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 1250
Location: California, F
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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i dont know, but i think if it was such a great idea, we would have had these vehicles before gas got to $4.50, so there must be some problems with something or everyone would be driving one,
and heck if people are soo fixed on electric to get to work, buy a golf cart, and for alot of americans that work an hour from their work, im the only one in my family that doesnt have to drive 30 minutes to work. |
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007david
Deputy Grammar Nazi
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 2494
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| tylerdrummer wrote: | | i dont know, but i think if it was such a great idea, we would have had these vehicles before gas got to $4.50, so there must be some problems with something or everyone would be driving one, |
That's a false equivalence (specifically post hoc ergo propter hoc for th debate nerds). The EV1 was a full-fledged production car back in 1996, and the designer for that car had been working on electric vehicles in the 70s. It's not that work hasn't been done on these electric cars or alternatives fuels (eg biodiesel in the 60s), but rather now the common person cares.
Back in 2003 I bought myself a diesel VW Jetta and joined a coop that made biodiesel. When we got our used oil for free it was around $1.20 per gallon, and when we had to pay it was around $2.10 per. Actual diesel at the time was around $1.40. This was done clearly not because of financial concerns, but rather it was done to not be using petroleum and having the associated exhaust issues. That you're hearing about it is because of $4 gas, but that it exists is not because of it.
| Quote: | | and heck if people are soo fixed on electric to get to work, buy a golf cart, and for alot of americans that work an hour from their work, im the only one in my family that doesnt have to drive 30 minutes to work. |
This is exemplative of my problem with suburbanization and exurbanization. I'm not talking you, Tyler, specifically, but the thought that people need to live well away from work, commute every day, and so on. We live so far away that we have notable distances to go just to see friends. When I was a kid the notion of having neighborhood kids play was just dying out. My younger sister and brother both had to be driven to all of their friends houses. America has the land, sure, but outside of places already densely populated, we haven't made up for the transit issue.
_________________
So with that title, do I Godwin every thread now?
Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium Eruditionis Habes.
19-0-8-0 8-0 19-0-4 13-17-13 12-15-7-25-25-5-9 |
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tylerdrummer
Lion King
Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 1250
Location: California, F
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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its not always just that though like my situation
the local music stores quite a ways away,
thr IRS is all the way down town in the ghetto, and we live on the opposite side of town
and the place where my dad works, he did really good when he worked where we live, and fixed the place up so the boss sent him to another city where the store was messed up to have him fix it, and they havent wanted him to leave since |
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random white person
Emperor of the World
Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 3622
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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on the subject of electric cars:
the technology to build them, and build them well, has been around for decades. in the 90's, California passed a law saying that some small percentage of all vehicles sold had to be "zero emission vehicles." GM designed their EV1 for this market, and it was actually quite popular. people who got their hands on one had positive reviews. there was a waiting list to buy one. despite this, GM claimed there was no demand (wait... there was a waiting list! i smell shenanigans!) and that they weren't making any money off of the model. instead of spending money on producing and marketing the EV1, they sued the state of California to repeal their zero emission law. most EV1s were taken off the road and "deactivated" by GM.
so basically, the majority of auto makers only care about their bottom line. sure, the R&D costs of electric vehicles could be high... but much of the research and implementation has already been done. all they need to do is build the things. with growing popularity, and very likely government subsidies, an automaker who positioned itself as the industry leader in mainstream electric cars would be sitting on a goldmine.
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| 007david wrote: | | Maybe RWP is really a crazy looking bird. You know, Coocoo for coconuts and all. |
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bytor
Admin
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 5306
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| drumminelsewhere wrote: | I'm not supporting anyone who wants to take away my freedoms and choices and make me do what they want. I don't want to be forced to pay for anyone's medical needs period. In fact if the government left me alone and I had more of my own money I'd give away just that much more of it. But because I get taxed out my butt and oil is so insanely high for whatever reason and I have to pay 140-200 a week in gas I don't have extra money to spend.
All the idea of big government accomplishes is control. "lets ban trans fat in NYC! for the good of people" are you kidding me? Let me make my own freaking choice, if I want to eat a greasy fatty hamburger that's my decision and no one else s. That's my whole big problem with liberalism at it's core. It always comes down to more control by the government.
I'm ALL for alternative fuels, I'm all for helping people in need (keyword, NEED, not people who mooch), I'm all for cleaner energy and cars that run off freaking air. And as a human being who has free will I don't want anyone imposing on my freedoms, that isn't their decision and it's not my job to control anyone else.
Also I know this isn't a big issue, but to me it is. I can't support anyone who believes that killing babies is ok. Yes I know it's a law but I know that McCain doesn't agree with it. (I'm not going to debate abortion in this thread, this is a personal view) |
Good post, Drummin. My views are very similar to yours. I'm extremely disappointed in the candidates this time, to be honest. I don't think McCain is the best choice to have on the Republican ticket, but I will definitely not be voting for Obama for the reasons you've listed in this and other posts. |
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DrumHead
Tiger
Joined: 09 Jun 2004
Posts: 818
Location: Apex, North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:44 am Post subject: |
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Tyler and DEW, there is some truth as well as quite a bit of technical ignorance on the topic, but I think you are missing the point... of my post anyway.
No, they aren't viable econmically for most people right now. That is the problem. These things need to reach a critical momentum. This is where the leadership is needed. Where is our great national challenge?
And I'm all for other alternative fuels, but electric vehicles make the most sense. Electricity isn't a fuel, its a process of the flow of electrons. You make an electric car with a payload capacity. Choose a battery that stores the power generated off-board (via any source, fuel cell, hydrogen, solar, wind, etc) OR carry the generator with you.
Tesla motors is already working on this. Also heard about this story last night on NPR http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2008/07/21/daily31.html
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Last edited by DrumHead on Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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drumminelsewhere
Moderator
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 3741
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| bytor wrote: | | drumminelsewhere wrote: | I'm not supporting anyone who wants to take away my freedoms and choices and make me do what they want. I don't want to be forced to pay for anyone's medical needs period. In fact if the government left me alone and I had more of my own money I'd give away just that much more of it. But because I get taxed out my butt and oil is so insanely high for whatever reason and I have to pay 140-200 a week in gas I don't have extra money to spend.
All the idea of big government accomplishes is control. "lets ban trans fat in NYC! for the good of people" are you kidding me? Let me make my own freaking choice, if I want to eat a greasy fatty hamburger that's my decision and no one else s. That's my whole big problem with liberalism at it's core. It always comes down to more control by the government.
I'm ALL for alternative fuels, I'm all for helping people in need (keyword, NEED, not people who mooch), I'm all for cleaner energy and cars that run off freaking air. And as a human being who has free will I don't want anyone imposing on my freedoms, that isn't their decision and it's not my job to control anyone else.
Also I know this isn't a big issue, but to me it is. I can't support anyone who believes that killing babies is ok. Yes I know it's a law but I know that McCain doesn't agree with it. (I'm not going to debate abortion in this thread, this is a personal view) |
Good post, Drummin. My views are very similar to yours. I'm extremely disappointed in the candidates this time, to be honest. I don't think McCain is the best choice to have on the Republican ticket, but I will definitely not be voting for Obama for the reasons you've listed in this and other posts. |
I really feel like writing in Stephen Colbert on a ticket. I'm not a fan of either of the candidates.
_________________
Not for fame or praise
Or to make noise with hate,
But to carry the torch in his mouth,
Strings create a flaming sound,
Thunderous beats crack the heart of our Savior
And His love pours out
www.myspace.com/redseaaffair
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tylerdrummer
Lion King
Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 1250
Location: California, F
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| drumminelsewhere wrote: | | bytor wrote: | | drumminelsewhere wrote: | I'm not supporting anyone who wants to take away my freedoms and choices and make me do what they want. I don't want to be forced to pay for anyone's medical needs period. In fact if the government left me alone and I had more of my own money I'd give away just that much more of it. But because I get taxed out my butt and oil is so insanely high for whatever reason and I have to pay 140-200 a week in gas I don't have extra money to spend.
All the idea of big government accomplishes is control. "lets ban trans fat in NYC! for the good of people" are you kidding me? Let me make my own freaking choice, if I want to eat a greasy fatty hamburger that's my decision and no one else s. That's my whole big problem with liberalism at it's core. It always comes down to more control by the government.
I'm ALL for alternative fuels, I'm all for helping people in need (keyword, NEED, not people who mooch), I'm all for cleaner energy and cars that run off freaking air. And as a human being who has free will I don't want anyone imposing on my freedoms, that isn't their decision and it's not my job to control anyone else.
Also I know this isn't a big issue, but to me it is. I can't support anyone who believes that killing babies is ok. Yes I know it's a law but I know that McCain doesn't agree with it. (I'm not going to debate abortion in this thread, this is a personal view) |
Good post, Drummin. My views are very similar to yours. I'm extremely disappointed in the candidates this time, to be honest. I don't think McCain is the best choice to have on the Republican ticket, but I will definitely not be voting for Obama for the reasons you've listed in this and other posts. |
I really feel like writing in Stephen Colbert on a ticket. I'm not a fan of either of the candidates. |
+1 |
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bytor
Admin
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 5306
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| drumminelsewhere wrote: | | bytor wrote: | | drumminelsewhere wrote: | I'm not supporting anyone who wants to take away my freedoms and choices and make me do what they want. I don't want to be forced to pay for anyone's medical needs period. In fact if the government left me alone and I had more of my own money I'd give away just that much more of it. But because I get taxed out my butt and oil is so insanely high for whatever reason and I have to pay 140-200 a week in gas I don't have extra money to spend.
All the idea of big government accomplishes is control. "lets ban trans fat in NYC! for the good of people" are you kidding me? Let me make my own freaking choice, if I want to eat a greasy fatty hamburger that's my decision and no one else s. That's my whole big problem with liberalism at it's core. It always comes down to more control by the government.
I'm ALL for alternative fuels, I'm all for helping people in need (keyword, NEED, not people who mooch), I'm all for cleaner energy and cars that run off freaking air. And as a human being who has free will I don't want anyone imposing on my freedoms, that isn't their decision and it's not my job to control anyone else.
Also I know this isn't a big issue, but to me it is. I can't support anyone who believes that killing babies is ok. Yes I know it's a law but I know that McCain doesn't agree with it. (I'm not going to debate abortion in this thread, this is a personal view) |
Good post, Drummin. My views are very similar to yours. I'm extremely disappointed in the candidates this time, to be honest. I don't think McCain is the best choice to have on the Republican ticket, but I will definitely not be voting for Obama for the reasons you've listed in this and other posts. |
I really feel like writing in Stephen Colbert on a ticket. I'm not a fan of either of the candidates. |
Honestly, I'd happily vote for Jesse Ventura over these jokers if he was running. Colbert might not be a bad idea, though. He is a Rush fan, after all! |
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tylerdrummer
Lion King
Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 1250
Location: California, F
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| ita dumb that he didnt take himsel fseriously enough because of his tv show to have him run, hed probably be a good president, reagan was an actor and they didnt diss him |
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Mr. Funky
Emperor of the World
Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Posts: 3347
Location: Still stuck in the Midwest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| tylerdrummer wrote: | | ita dumb that he didnt take himsel fseriously enough because of his tv show to have him run, hed probably be a good president, reagan was an actor and they didnt diss him |
Please take the time to make your posts a little more understandable.
I understand that typos happen, but this is outrageous. If you want to be taken seriously on this board (and anywhere, for that matter), readers have to be able to understand the points you are trying to make. A little punctuation really doesn't take that long to add. |
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