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CAPTORofSIN
King of the Jungle
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 1805
Location: Lousy So Cal.
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random white person
Emperor of the World
Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 3622
Location: New York
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 Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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heck yes! obviously unless you're drumming vigorously for hours a day, its no replacement for traditional exercise, but its a great way to break a sweat and get your heart pumpin'
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| 007david wrote: | | Maybe RWP is really a crazy looking bird. You know, Coocoo for coconuts and all. |
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phantompong
Lion
Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 942
Location: on the side of the world
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: |
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AHA.
I saw this on Drummercafe, too, and I posted a reply... I'll replicate it here.
| Quote: | The article doesn't mention his resting heart rate or his power output (if you could measure that on the drums...) I only cycle recreationally but I follow pro cycling, and why this is not necessarily as revealing as it seems to be is because as you get fitter, your power output at the same heart rate increases.
What this means is that the fact he spends a performance - let's say two hours - at 150 bpm doesn't necessarily mean more than the fact I can spend two hours cycling at 150 bpm. Now if I spend two hours cycling at 150 bpm, I might be going at 28 km/h on flat and rolling terrain. A pro cyclist cycling 28 km/h on flat and rolling might only be at 100 bpm (I'm guessing! 007david, any idea?). A pro cyclist cycling at 150 bpm on flat and rolling is probably going at 40+ km/h. According to srm.de, for instance, Adam Hansen in the second Tour de France time trial averaged 45.1 km/h at 147.2 bpm. I probably get 147 bpm climbing the stairs!
Similarly, the fact it could rise up to 190 beats doesn't mean anything without further data. Put on your running shoes, fix your eye on a spot in the distance, and make a flat out dash for it. If you're unfit (edit: and young enough to have that kind of heart rate range), your heart rate might go up to 190 beats too.
It's definitely healthy to spend a couple of hours a day in the aerobic zone, he's probably healthier than someone else who doesn't have any sort of aerobic exercise, ceteris paribus. But the article also says Burke burns 400 to 600 calories per hour - that is nowhere near what I would expect a runner running 10,000m to burn. An elite athlete doing the 10k would complete it under 35 minutes and burn 600+ calories for the effort. Not just that, but 400 to 600 calories per hour while drumming is actually more than I'd expect to burn - google that, I'm sure you'll find that 250 to 350 cal is the more realistic and commonly cited figure. So maybe the extra 200 to 300 cal is either some very athletic drumming, or live showmanship - standing up, headbanging, etc.
I mean, I'm not an expert, but the article isn't telling us everything. It does mention that he measured Burke's oxygen uptake and lactate threshold - I'd like to know those figures. They would be more telling than heart rate values. |
The values I've given aren't precise at all, I'm just guessing. Probably David will be able to give you a better idea. But generally the measure of aerobic capacity is oxygen uptake, rather than heart rate, which measures exertion.
Actually, I've just procured a heart rate monitor and I'm thinking about putting this to the test between running, cycling and drumming - although again, probably David is better equipped to give further details.
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If you don't like it, you can just *Golly Gee* off! - Keith Moon's last words
Drummers are subject to physical laws of nature. One of them states that if you drop a wing nut, it will roll under the bass drum. - Roy Burns |
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007david
Deputy Grammar Nazi
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 2494
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:58 am Post subject: |
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I don't disagree, pong, but it's an apples to oranges situation (insofar as training is concerned).
Let's play fast and loose with the numbers. The average adult has a resting HR of about 70 bpm, and a max around 180. That gives 110 bpm range, so at 150 they are at 83% their max, and 73% through that range. My max heart rate is 228, so my 83% effort would be 190 bpm which would be quite the sprint.
Now, let's do the apples to apples comparison.
First I'm going to round down to 80% maxHR which is still anaerobic. Also I'm not going out on the bike, but I'm going to use old data (like, from yesterday). The test setup is this: bike as normal (go out for a few hours with the computer recording far more data than I actually need), drums with the practice pad setup (two pads for sticks, ottoman on it's side for the bass).
On the bike the longest I spent above 80% was for 10 minutes with an average HR of 195 bpm, close enough for our data here. On drums I couldn't even get past 150 bpm no matter what I did. Now, doing subjectively comparable amounts of effort, on drums it was 130 bpm on bike it was 165ish bpm. I don't have any energy used data since I don't save that from the bike (I guess I could roughly approximate it from wattage, though). Subjectively, though, I'm far more famished after 1 hour on the bike doing a moderate pace that 1 hour of even the most frenetic drumming.
So suffice to say, I think the relative comparison is warranted, and the absolute comparison is warranted if you compare to athletic people rather than athletes. I think the point of the article (which I haven't read in full) is that if we assigned all musicians a sport drummers would be the triathlets while bassist (say) would be Sumo. At least every bassist I know.
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So with that title, do I Godwin every thread now?
Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium Eruditionis Habes.
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DrumHead
Tiger
Joined: 09 Jun 2004
Posts: 818
Location: Apex, North Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: |
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I think a lot of people confuse "athletic" or "Being an athlete" with "getting exercise".
The article does the same, but I would guess that the authors of the study are more interested in exercise since they mention alternatives for kids who are obese.
The objective of an athlete is to perform the best he can in his given area. The objective of excercise is to maintain or increase your fitness level for whatever reason (weight loss, athletic performance, long life).
Anyway, phantompong's got it right. The article tells us nothing of this guy's absolute (athletic) fitness without knowing the work done. 007 clears this up a bit, being both a drummer and an athlete. I guess he would have to perform a Blondie show and get his HR measured to see. I would be willing to bet 007's heart rate would be a lot lower for the given work.
I mostly posted a reply here cuz the seeming confusion between what's good excercise and what's good performance. I recently saw a article in a mainstream newspaper about how to "maximize your water workout" and mentioned streamlined swimwear. This in no way maximizes your workout - you could be pulling little parachutes and do as well. And then you see guys at the gym doing little "tricks" to get up just a little more weight. Why do they do this?
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What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got, say, pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angels' trumpets and devils' trombones. You are invited!
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bytor
Admin
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 5306
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| 007david wrote: | | I think the point of the article (which I haven't read in full) is that if we assigned all musicians a sport drummers would be the triathlets while bassist (say) would be Sumo. At least every bassist I know. |
I don't know... I've seen some bass players that are pretty darn frenetic (good word, btw). However, I get your point, and well said. |
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phantompong
Lion
Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 942
Location: on the side of the world
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: |
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The reply I posted on Drummercafe was in fact in response to this article:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24063397-401,00.html
Same experiment, but a few more details which might raise eyebrows.
| Quote: | Marcus Smith of the University of Chichester said: "For me, as a sports scientist, he is no different to the Olympic athletes I have worked with."
Dr Smith and Steve Draper, of the University of Gloucestershire, monitored Burke's oxygen uptake, blood lactate and heart rate in rehearsals and live performances, The Australian reports.
"He loses up to two litres of fluid in a performance, which is similar to a runner going out and doing 10,000m," Dr Smith said.
Burke burned 400-600 calories an hour. His heart rate averaged 140 to 150 beats a minute, though it could rise as high as 190 beats - equalling that of Cristiano Ronaldo in a Premier League football match. |
I agree the distinction between "athletic" and "athlete" has to be made. I think perhaps the data supports a generic athleticism in the sense that drummers are constantly in the aerobic zone, but definitely not that drummers can be compared with athletes apples-to-apples (I had another word for this, but it escaped me; you know how it is >_<)
What interests me is that Dr Smith says that drummers are to him "no different from the Olympic athletes I've worked with". Does he say that from the perspective of "I can measure his exertion and aerobic capacity using the same numbers as that I use for athletes", or from "I've seen the numbers, and they're the same as those from the athlete's I've worked with"? The first perspective is perhaps valid, but the second is a bit iffy to say in the least.
... and David, that is SOME heart! 228 bpm max HR?
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If you don't like it, you can just *Golly Gee* off! - Keith Moon's last words
Drummers are subject to physical laws of nature. One of them states that if you drop a wing nut, it will roll under the bass drum. - Roy Burns |
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007david
Deputy Grammar Nazi
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 2494
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| phantompong wrote: | | ... and David, that is SOME heart! 228 bpm max HR? |
Yeah, as a kid it was actually my first trip to the hospital. My dad bought one of those HR watches when I was 6, and I thought I'd stress it out. Put on the watch, and the cheststrap then ran as hard and fast as I could, and then tried to go harder. It hit 250 and the watch started beeping like mad. My dad kind of freaked out at it and made me put on an ice cold towel as we sped to a doctor.
The best part about all of this, though, is that I can volitionally control my heartrate (within reason, of course; if I'm at VO2Max, I can't just go to resting without, well, dying). Whenever I have to get an EKG for something I always let it go at a normal pace, then start screwing with the machine pushing the heart harder and faster. |
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gav
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 730
Location: Hampshire, England
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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david your heart should be an exhibit when you´re gone (a tad morbid perhaps but a compliment was intended)
the point of all this is that if fat kids started drumming regularly they might lose weight, just as they might if they started playing football regularly. but for years i´ve been telling my girlfriend drumming is exercise, this article should prove useful to me, cheers captor
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