Vocal mics for drum overheads?

Anal-Juice · Tadpole Joined: 20 Jul 2004 Posts: 20 Location: Alberta

Hi, I know this is a dumb thought but I'd like your guys's imput.

I find that vocal mics cant pick up my cymbals. All it sounds like when i crash them, it records a big unbalanced sort of fading crackle. It sounds washy, like the cymbal sound fades in and out. But when they are picking up the rest of the drums it sounds fine. I know theirs nothing wrong with my mics, but I'm wondering, in order to record cymbals do I REALLY need to use instrument microphones?

Because my best guess is the reason they crap out when I hit a cymbal is because they cant handle anything that loud. Like the frequency pickup is geared more towards a human vocal range, not towards a loud 85dB cymbal crash.

Any imput would help, thanks.

Radialprofan · Grizzly Bear Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 728

It could be SPL (Sound Pressure Level) but it can also be the frequency response of the mic or the mic pre. What type of mic is it? Is it a dynamic mic or condenser? I've had some luck using a good ole SM57 as an overhead but it's not what I prefer by any means. If you're in the market and have the funds, check out the MXL 603s. For about $99.00 each, a pair of these would really sweeten up your overheads, big time. Check ebay for some used ones!

micleross · Big Hamster Joined: 22 Sep 2004 Posts: 95 Location: Texas

Yea, don't use vocal mics. Get yourself a condenser. If you don't have a lot of money you can just get one and put it right over you and that would be so much better than those vocal mics.
laters,
Michael
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Lionheartilly · Puppy Joined: 17 Aug 2003 Posts: 217

What's the primary difference between condenser and vocal mic?
I think I've seen condenser being used in some churches where's they have two on top of the drums.

On top of that, do you use other mics as well?
Is that only to capture the essence of cymbals or the overall sound of the drums?

Lion

micleross · Big Hamster Joined: 22 Sep 2004 Posts: 95 Location: Texas

Condensers only act under a certain frequency. condencers for cymbals use a very high pitched frequency. Bass drum mics use a very low frequency. you can talk into a condenser and it will not make a sound you have to reach the frequency it requires. I hope that helps you I really did not explain it to good.
Michael
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Radialprofan · Grizzly Bear Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 728

Lionheartilly · Puppy Joined: 17 Aug 2003 Posts: 217

Neat radialprofan

Thanks for the article. I didn't understand a whole lot of it even though I read it a few times.
Shame on me, I'm an engineer and I don't remember what a capacitance do to a system, LOL.

Anyways, generally speaking then, condenser are better and more expensive mics.
Right?

Lion

Radialprofan · Grizzly Bear Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 728

Well I'd say condensers are better suited for some jobs than dynamic mics. Dynamics are generaly better for high SPL placements than condensers. Close micing a drum for example. That of course depends on the mic too. Oh and the place and purpose it's being used. Recording or live micing is such a rascal to deal with when you have a big budget because there is Soooooo much out there to choose from! Most of us have a limited budget so that actually works in MY favor! Wink

makes the choice a whole lot easier! LOL I always tell folks to listen and pick what their ears like best and then buy the best you can afford. You can count on the fact there's always "better" mics out there than what you may own. You have to get what works best for you within the budget you have to work with. ..... or be independently wealthy.

chetatkinsdiet · Ferret Joined: 26 Jul 2004 Posts: 107

This whole thread is very confusing from the start. I think the initial question needs to be reworded or questioned itself.
First off, a mic is a mic is a mic. Calling something a "vocal" mic is a bit misleading itself. Are you saying that a Neumann U67 isn't going to work on anything but vocals? How bout the AKG C12....probably the finest vocal mic ever...as well as drum overhead mic.
An SM57? Works on everything.
Now, mic theory....every mic has a frequency response that it follows. This is probably what the post above was trying to explain. Some are more well suited for certain instruments and voices than others, but there are no absolutes or guarantees. For example, an EV RE20 is primarily designed to be a voiceover or microphone for in-studio DJs. They are also KILLER on bass drums and bass guitar amps. Same with a Shure SM7.
OK...on to the original question. What are you talking about here? A dynamic, stage type vocal mic like a Shure SM58? Or do you mean a high end condenser that's used in studios for vocals....like a Neumann U87? A Shure SM58 probably wouldn't be my first choice for a drum overhead as the frequency response on this particular mic doesn't do too well with things like cymbals. Any pair of small diaphram condensors will probably do better. Oktava, Behringer, Marshall, etc.....on the low end and AKG, Neumann, etc on the high end. Some people prefer the sound of large diaphram condensors on their drum overheads. To me, the larger diaphram makes them a bit sloppy. Larger diaphram takes more "air" to move it. Then it moves a bit slower than a smaller diaphram. It's just a matter of what sound you're after. Sort of like choosing between thick or thin cymbals or single or double ply heads.
This is almost splitting hairs at the level that I'm guessing we're talking here, but this is my answer....

DrumHead · Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:13 pm Post subject:

I'll sum up my experience micing drums (in a recording situation).

First, the thing about condensor mics is wrong. They generally have a very wide frequency response and sound like crystal compared to dynamic mics. You have to have a mixer with phantom power usually, unless the mic has battery power option. Condensor mics are the bomb for overheads.

Here's how to mic a kit:

Close mic everything with a decent set of dynamic mics made for a kit. You can choose Audix, Samson, Audio Techinica, Shure, CAD, and others. I have a Samson set (I wouldn't choose them again, given the choice). Ok, you've got everything close miced.

Now, set up 2 overhead mics about 3 feet directly to each side of you're throne. Point them at the snare.

Turn down the close mics, and get the levels set for the overheads. You want the drums to sound as good as possible at this point, but mainly focus on the cymbals and a good even sound from the rest of the drums (nothing stands out - levelwise).

Now, Bring up your close mics to augment the overheads. Some may be trimmed down to almost nothing, and some might have substantial input to the overall mix (i.e. bass drum).

Oh yeah, get your drums tuned. In a nutshell, start with a good room sound you like, mic that sound with properly placed overheads, augment with close mics, and record away. If you have the means, use a little compression on the signal. If you set the attack on the compression at about 5-10 ms, a threshold of -20db, and a compression ratio of 4-8, you'll end up with a killer sound.
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JayCam · Alley Cat Joined: 10 Apr 2005 Posts: 192

JayCam · Alley Cat Joined: 10 Apr 2005 Posts: 192

lol i wonder how many people will pick up on that pun.

Blaze Launcher · Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 3:40 pm Post subject:

considering were posting in the recording forum, i think there'll be quite a few who catch that one.

Anyway, I'd like to say that close micing isn't necessary to get a good sound. Triangular Micing (using three mics, the kick and two overheads) can also produce high quality sound. There is also a much better pickup of room sound, since the mics are farther away from the drums and pick up a wider range (physically) of sounds. This could be either good or bad. It depends on your setting. if you want the flat, non-resonant sound a studio gives you, triangular micing is not as good because your studio has to be that much more soundproof. On the other hand, if you want a big, open sound, you can record in an acoustically reflective room to get a loud reverberation from the walls and floor. Led Zeppelin used this method for "The Song Remains the Same", and IMO it sounds pretty good that way. Basically, if you have relatively complete control over your environment, triangular micing can work almost just as well for any setting.

As for the type of microphone, as others have said, condensers are better for picking up cymbals, with few exceptions. The confusion as to frequency response I think might have been mistaken for loudness. Granted, a condenser is geared towards a specific frequency, but it can typically pick up other frequencies, just not as well. The reason why a Kick drum mic would typically not work very well with vocals is because a kick drum mic is made to withstand very high sound pressure without distortion, so the diaphragm is stiffer than a vocal mics, and would only get a weak signal from something as quiet as a human voice in comparison to a powerful kick drum stroke.

There are always exceptions to this, because all mics are different and can respond to bigger or smaller ranges in volume and frequency, but this is the basic concept.

nine · Cobra Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 479 Location: Evil

brandondrury · Newbie Alert Joined: 11 Nov 2005 Posts: 1

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