odd time signatures and phrasing

Dustin07 · Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:39 pm Post subject: odd time signatures and phrasing

so I met with a new guitarist (left my old band) tonight and had a great time with him. His stuff is really cool, but out there and VERY challenging for me. Much longer phrasing than I'm used to, and totally different time signatures.... I'm used to a very standard 4/4 beat and my brain is hardwired to 'start over' at the end of my 4 or 8. his are like 3 and 6, kind of cool stuff though. anyhow, on to the technique...

where can I find some ideas to help practice some odd signatures so my brain doesn't get stuck in the wrong loop? After a while I was able to get into some pretty decent grooves, but it was really challenging for me at first. I hope he wasn't too put off by my playing because I loved the challenge and would like to jam with him again. It's really mind expanding for me.

Mr.Clam · Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:30 am Post subject:

Well, the only thing I can really think of is to get a Tool CD, or listen to some of their stuff, and try and learn some of their drum tracks. They go into all sorts of wierd time signatures. Or, another thing is to go to free drum lesson websites, I was on one, i think it was webthumper or something like that, they tabbed out all sorts of drum beats for different times, you could learn them, and adapt them to your style.
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styles2281 · Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:37 am Post subject:

You can listen to how other band's drummers adjust to odd times. Tool is a good one, but definitely take a look at King Crimson, Rush, Yes, Dream Theater, etc. All of them have (or have had) drummers who are masters of the odd time.

Part of learning odd times is learning how to feel them. You can help yourself by learning certain rhythms ("Take Five" is a great drum rhythm to learn for 5/8, or even a basic jazz waltz for 3). Learning how to groove in odd times will always be a plus.

The big thing about odd times is learning how to count the stress points.
For example, let's take a 7/8 rhythm. It can be counted as 1231234, or 1231212, or 1234123, or 1212123. So, the trick here would be to get whichever 7 feel you have and ACCENT those rhythmic stresses. Personally, I do a lot of writing in 7, because it has a great pull. Plus, combined with a 5, you make make some nice transitions into a 12/8.

Looking at the 5 feel you get the same thing; 12312 or 12123 (See "Take Five" by Dave Brubeck or "Losing It" by Rush)

6's and 9's are fun because you can play a straight beat for some fun with the melody or play accented to the rhythmic stresses.

Anyways, hope this helps.
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bytor · Admin Joined: 12 Aug 2003 Posts: 5260 Location: Kansas

Off topic, in a way, but "Losing it" is one of my favorite Rush songs.

Anyway, great post, styles.

Dustin07 · Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:20 am Post subject:

thanks guys, I'm listening to Tool now and I'll pull up those other as well. Thanks for the break down styles. This stuff is really wild for me, mind expanding... it's making me realize how much of a loop i was stuck in before. I was trying to break down new beats and even polys within the same basica loop I guess. Now it's like a whole new world has been exposed to me. Very cool.

Dustin07 · Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:21 am Post subject:

I did pick up on good accent points last night, but it was a matter of phrasing that kept throwing me off. I could definitely feel where the accents where tho.

Rasta · Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:48 am Post subject:

Just make a phrase that incorporates the accents.

One of the hard things for me was doing fills in the odd timing. I was so used to doing fills for 4 or 8 that 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, and 10 seemed so unintuitive.

You want to hear some crazy rythmic phrasing, check out Zakir Hussein. He plays tabla (classical indian hand drums) and is one of the most prolific classicaly trained musicians from his country.

They incorporate everything from patterns of 4 to patterns of 13!

Dustin07 · Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:54 am Post subject:

styles2281 · Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:36 am Post subject:

styles2281 · Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:38 am Post subject:

Grande · Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:22 am Post subject:

This post is long after the thread started but I just got here. I hope this helps;

Listen to the Don Ellis Orchestra, 60s jazz big band. "Electric Bath" is the best album. They play in some very wiggy but countable time signatures, i.e. 5/8, 13/8, 7/4 and 3.5/4! Your sense of what is normal will change and you'll come away a different person. Good luck.

drummerb0y25 · Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject:

The most important thing is to make sure the music feels good. Nothing against Neil Peart and Rush but some of his stuff is pretty rigid. Tom sawyer for instance, 7/8 but it's not the most fluid 7/8 in existance. try to make the music flow.
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"The more control you have of the instrument, the more confidence you will get and the more you will be able to express your ideas; Technique is only good if you can use it musically." -J.M.

styles2281 · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:55 am Post subject:

drummerb0y25 · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:07 pm Post subject: