Where I want to see drums go

007david · Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:58 pm Post subject: Where I want to see drums go

As a result of Pipi's thread about a cover I started watching videos on youtube, and I have to say: I am disappointed. I do not worry about the quality or technique of the playing--all of those were up to par, but in looking around other videos related to his and even just other drumming videos the originality seems lost.

I don't mean that it seems as if drummers are having a hard time coming up with new beats and rhythms. I don't mean that it seems as if drummers are more content to copy and cover that to create. I mean that we've made drums beholden to the other instruments. It seems as if western music has diminished the first instance of music [1].

What I don't want to see is a lessening of focus on music theory necessarily. I think there are some very interesting things that have correlations and causations deeply within humanity. However--and I do not speak on or with authority here--it seems largely limited. It is descriptive, but not emphatic. I think there is a great deal to be learned from theory, but there is the problem of describing or just outright deigning the emotional. I can be told why something should be found beautiful, but I cannot be told how it is beautiful. Beyond that the theory I've learned seems geared toward western music anyhow. If there is something generative about music, then there should be some overriding functions. If there exists a function, then we can go from there to just skim the surface of art.

Which is what I want to see. I want there to be the emotional; I want it to be art; I want to be . I want to see drum not simply standalone (eg Bozzio, Grant Collins, et al), nor do I want to see simply the most amazing of solos, nor do I want to see simply collaboration toward some nebulous and specifically undefined goal (eg drum circles).

Specifically I want to see the purpose of drums to be to create art and beauty.

I ask, why did you get into drums and why do you stay? It is fun, no doubt. I like being able to make music, but is that it? What is the meat, what is the continuance? Am I just as fulfilled playing for a folk singer as I am playing for a metal band? Do I need to play alone, or does there need to be more? I got into drums because I heard the Black Page (which might explain my perspective somewhat), and I stay because I am an artist who picked a paintbrush without horsehair to control my medium. I believe that I worry over each quarter note like a poet worries over each syllable; each bar as a word; each phrase as a sentence; each song as poem. I know I am only fulfilled in a band where I do more than keep time and am allowed to stretch, regardless of the genre. However, I similarly need no one and need more. There is so much more.

If I can ascribe my personal wishes to drums as the whole, I want creativity. Whether that is a drum telling of a story that is written, drums in an ensemble of instruments, or just being there to exist for the sake of art, I want it to be creative. This is the point of contention I had with all those videos; no one stretched out to add a few more notes or see whether something fit better. The current mold is play slightly different beats between verses, choruses, and bridges, but why not fit the rhythm to the song itself? If our purpose is keeping time, can't we do that without repeating the same handful of notes over and over? Your physical heart is the direct source of your rhythm, why do we fear making the metaphorical heart the same?

I think Cecil Taylor and Sunny Murray got it right. Picture a line of the emotion of a song, and play to that. Does a high point mean fff or does it mean 200 bpm? Interpret it for yourself. Foist the responsibility of dissecting a song on the listener. What is the point otherwise? If you're telling a story through the song is your part necessary artistically or traditionally? Don't be second fiddle, rather look at the point and get there as you best can, not as you are best intended to. A great example of this, I believe, is the band Explosions in the Sky. The percussion for it is almost never straight forward as we would expect, but its role is directly fitting and necessary to the band as a whole.

Thus comes the full point: Be creative for yourself. This is going to limit the number of bands that exist, yes, as the artistic purposes of all are largely going to only meet at the margins, but it will be progressive [2].

Where I want to see drums go is to a place of esteem. I want us to be in the back because of choice not because that's where we're supposed to go. There is so much more. There are miles beyond 4/4 and snares on evens. It is our fault as drummers for being complacent, and this acquiescence has lead to generations simply banging chronologically rather than purposefully [3]. I want to see drums be an instrument as desirable as guitar or piano or other things. I want the creativity and art restored so that it's not Animal banging tubs but rather a drummer creating something beautiful.

I want us to do something unique for a change.

[1] Some would argue that singing is the first form, and I don't necessarily disagree with that. However, rhythm comes from a heartbeat and compared to other mammals and vertebrates a heartbeat is more prevalent that voice. Also if singing implies language, that is a relatively recent development. If it does not then even still the heart was first.

[2] I mean progressive in the sense of progress. There is more to be had if we would but reach out for it.

[3] I believe that if the we had had bands pushing limits--or even if not pushing just tempting or exploring, we would be writing music rather than filling in the expected.
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tylerdrummer · Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:41 pm Post subject:

not really getting this post, but ok.
Have you ever seen Bozzio do a solo, he is pretty mobile and moves quite a bit, like the Rev and such.
if you want someone that doesnt move look at peart, hes great but theres like no emotion put into it, and doesnt move at all.
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its really late, but if you look around the Tube there are quite a bit of emotional drummers, and originality.

and bands that want to copy bands, usually dont get anywhere, or any true music fan doesnt like them, but there are alot of bands that are throwing in weird combinations of music together as a band.

styles2281 · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:27 am Post subject:

DrumHead · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:03 am Post subject:

I agree with you 007. I feel the same way, but I hadn't thought about it much previously. There does seem to be a lack of creativity, originality on the youtube.

And kudos for teaching me a new word. Foist. At "foist" I thought it was how one of the 3 stooges would describe how he was before second.
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random white person · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:36 am Post subject:

interesting points. i definitely can agree that many drummers, myself included, have fallen into the trap of "i'm playing with a rock band, therefore i should play a 4/4 rock beat that accompanies what everyone else in the band plays."

i really like the idea of stepping back and thinking about the feel, the emotions of a song and then playing what you feel and not what you think would sound right to everyone else.

artistry and creativity is not necessarily conveyed through complexity and technical mastery. i've really been turned off by watching/listening to solo drumming because you can almost guarantee the drummer will basically just give you an overview of all of the techniques he knows, the utterly confusing things he can play, and how well he can hit each of his 17 cymbals simply for the sake of hitting them.

this doesn't mean that less is more, or that more is less, or that drumming naked isn't totally awesome (wait, what? Confused

). just play what you want, play what you feel, and if you're truly happy with what you've created, then that's all you can ask for.
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Mr. Funky · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:31 am Post subject:

I understand and completely agree with what you are saying David, and this lack of fulfillment is something i've been struggling with too. However, while there is so much more than 4/4, sometimes that's all that is needed. Often times, simplicity, subtlety, and letting other people be creative is just as beautiful and artistic as musically saying something yourself.

tylerdrummer · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:45 am Post subject:

o ok, i was kind of tired and thought that he was saying something else i guess
Hey, i love Rush and all that good stuff but if your talking about emotion, and getting into the music, peart shows emotion but he is one of them that stands still the whole time.
and i think theres still alot of creativity, but theres still people that want to copy, you just have to find the bands.
[quote]this doesn't mean that less is more, or that more is less, or that drumming naked isn't totally awesome (wait, what? ). just play what you want, play what you feel, and if you're truly happy with what you've created, then that's all you can ask for.

[/quote]

+1 thats like the sum of all that you need to do, if you can do a wicked 4/4 beat and play the hell out of it, then play it, rather then alot of people ive seen do sloppy off time beats, but if that fits you or your band then thats fine make yourself happy with your drums and if you like it, who gives a crap about other peoples opinions, cause theres always going to be someone that doesnt like what your doing.
and for me, and the band im in, only me and the bassist have a clue of what off-time means or time signatures, and music theory, so i can't really play in a different time.(it would be weird to hear a band playing in like 5/8 anyway)

tylerdrummer · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:46 am Post subject:

dammit i still cant quote right....

styles2281 · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:18 am Post subject:

ONe of the problems I see, and may be related to David's comments, is that most of the bands are filled with mostly Amatuer drummers. We're not talking about people who are trying to be masters of their craft...just people trying to play a style and make money doing it. I think that's where most of this begins.

I was at my unit's annual training the last few weeks, and I was helping one of my soldiers learn swing/jazz and latin on drums. One of the thoughts that occured to me why watching him play is that we, often times - as amateurs, get so caught up in trying to play the STYLE that we forget, or lose track of, the SONG. And largely, I think this is what we have, and what David is discussing. We become so focused on the STYLE, or what's EXPECTED of us to play, that we don't play the song and other possible things that fit, or accent the piece.

It's an extremely hard rut to get out of, as well. If we see Bossa Nova on the page, we play a text book Bossa. It will likely sound fine, but the music could EASILY be spiced up by a bit of creativity. I think this sounds true for all other styles as well.

What do you guys think?
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drummerb0y25 · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:19 am Post subject:

Just IMO here, but I've said it before, Rush is hardly the best example of feeling in the form of rock music. Yes they have improved over the years, but most of those heyday years alot of Pearts drumming was very rigid and non-feeling. The odd time signatures which might have contained flowing, non-odd feeling drumming were just like any other rock drummer, take a measure of 8 and drop a note to make it 7.

Its just my interpetation that what is feeling, emotional drumming - either accompany or solo - comes down to tastes, in what the music "should" sound like to be appealing to your own ears.

It is really an opinionated topic, acstually, that more or less "creative and developed" percussion and drums is lacking in todays music. There are alot of players out there that simply do not care for having chops that are dynamic, finesse etc. That does not mean that they are not creative nor developed to everyones ears. Of course to the dynamic and finesse guy or gal, we know where they will stand..
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phantompong · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:28 am Post subject:

Tyler - I think if we make it just a bit clearer. David isn't talking about playing with emotion per se. He's talking about pushing traditional limits of drumming without overstepping the limits of what the song needs. You don't have to play in 5/8 if you don't want to, but straight ahead 4/4 may not bring out the fullest potential of the song either is what he's saying. I think (I only skimmed over all the posts).

And yes, I agree with styles that in that respect, Peart is one of the best. He's one of the guys I listened to and thought, "omg, you can do that on the drums?" I'm not in the Peart is God category, but I agree that he's very creative.

This sort of reminds me of an analogy that I used to explain what I perceived as the difference between the O Level and A Level exams. I said that the O Levels were like learning to play the piano by learning the repertoire - you can play a few songs, but you can't necessarily play the piano. The A Levels on the other hand required an understanding and a command of the subject, not just superficial, trivial ability. I think what David's trying to say here is that many of us know how to play drums, but not many drummers know how to play music, and music in its broadest sense, not just "grooving" or laying down the beat as the limits of drummers' musical abilities often are.
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drummerb0y25 · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:00 am Post subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhI5-8W-8wk

Here is my interpetation of creative, and dynamic playing. There is some displacement going on apparently. 6 of course is encouraging to improvise upon. This is one of my past instructors, Dean Johnston.
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punkrocker7341 · Lion Joined: 23 May 2004 Posts: 926 Location: AZ

I agree and disagree on a few points you made, but I do understand what you are saying I think. One of my favorite local bands is starting to push in to new territory, they are playing to fit the sound they are looking for. Changing time signatures, being aware of when it has to open up and then when it should be tighter. Their name is Captain Squeegee And The Soapsuds. Check out Laughability, there are things that I consider out of the norm for most bands and shows some growth outside of the typical rock band.

www.myspace.com/csatss
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gav · Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:01 am Post subject:

i think i understand what you're saying and i feel similar things about what i hear on the radio, it almost disgusts me how lacking in creativity the more popular bands are. not just in the generic drumming, but the guitars and singing are all so predictable and cliche, even the lyrics are unimaginative (rhyming 'walk' with 'talk' for example). i also feel the same way about some of the bands i do like, but my favourite bands are always the ones that don't sound like anything else, that have that creativity.

my eyes were first opened to creative drumming in this sense when i listened to 'stream of conciousness' by dream theater. it may not be the best example for what david is talking about but its what i always think of when i think about creative drumming, not just playing a beat, but playing a song.

i try to incorporate things i haven't heard before into my drumming, but i've never had the chance to write a song with someone before (i have no-one to play with) so i don't know how well i would fare if i were in a band, though i fear my lack of experience in other genres of music would lead me to play in exactly the way i despise...

all of this said, acdc wouldn't be the same if the drumming wasn't so basic

thank you for taking the time to share your frighteningly well written thoughts with us david
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phantompong · Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:17 am Post subject: